It's so nice to see Liz and Ken back in The Scarlet Pimpernel. I decided to interview them together because it's hard to imagine one without the other. They have a tendency to finish each other's sentences, which didn't really pose a problem because they are in agreement on so many subjects. Actually, it probably made the whole meeting a lot more enjoyable.

Except for five months in the beginning of 1999, Liz has played Marie since the pre-Broadway readings of The Scarlet Pimpernel. She has understudied Marguerite since SP2. Ken played Ben in SP1 and SP2, and is now playing Dewhurst in SP3.

NR: Can you tell me where you both grew up?

EWL: I grew up in Denver. I lived there until I graduated from high school. I went to college in California, both for undergrad and for my Masters. At that point my parents moved to Little Rock, Arkansas. They've lived there almost twenty years and my little sisters grew up there. Then in a roundabout way I eventually came to New York and I've been here since `87.

NR: How about you, Ken?

KL: I grew up in Minneapolis. My family moved about 30 years ago down to Phoenix and all of my family is in Arizona now. I've been in New York since `81, eighteen years now.

NR: When did you two meet?

EWL: I'm going to tell you something very funny. We met at Gregg Edelman and Carolee Carmello's wedding. How about that?

NR: How long ago was that?

EWL: March of 1995. I did City of Angels with Gregg and Carolee and Passion with Gregg and Hello Again with Carolee. I stood by for her there. Gregg and Ken had done the first national tour of Evita in the early `80s.

KL: 1980. The first national tour.

EWL: So we independently were invited to the wedding. We met at the wedding and we've been together ever since.

KL: Isn't that wild?

NR: You got married about a year ago, right?

EWL: We got married July 26, `98.

(Both at the same time): Fourteen months ago tomorrow.

KL: (teasing) Seems like fifteen months.

NR: (laughing) OK. You can always spot newlyweds when they tell you how long they've been married in months.

EWL: But it's just such a coincidence that Carolee is now in the show and Gregg's in Les Miz. We've both known them for a very long time, independently. One of their wedding presents to us... we were dancing at their wedding and the photographer snapped a picture of us. They came to our wedding and they gave us that picture. It's kind of weird to look at the picture now.

KL: We had our arms around each other. We had just met three hours earlier.

EWL: Yeah, so it was meant to be.

NR: Now, is it hard to work with your spouse?

(Both at the same time): No.

EWL: No, it's not hard to work together. That's not the problem. If we have any strife it's that we just spend so much time together.

KL: That's the deal.

EWL: I never see him in the show.

KL: We're on different floors. My dressing room is right below hers. We walk to work together, we're here, we have dinner together between shows, we go home, we sleep. It's a lot of being together.

EWL: The benefits outweigh...the drawback is that we just get a little bit sick of each other (big smile) - in a good way. We're each other's favorite person, but you know...

KL: ...you need to take a break.

EWL: But the benefits are that we have all these exciting shared experiences. In the last year, we redid Scarlet Pimpernel 2, we left and did Romeo and Juliet...

KL: ...where we played the Capulets, so we played husband and wife.

EWL: We got asked back to come here, and to do Romeo and Juliet again, we came back here, but met Terry (Mann) and Charlotte (D'Amboise) in Paris before we started this.

KL: Yeah, we went and took a vacation.

EWL: So, it's been a wild adventure. Even when we do get a little edgy with each other, we know that this won't last forever. We won't always work together.

KL: And seriously, there's not one day that we don't say, "You know, we're working on Broadway together." This is like a dream.

EWL: It's not been lost on us, the glory of it. I'm proud of us in that regard. We've really taken stock of it. We're really aware of how lucky we are.

KL: We're appreciative of it because we know it's not going to last.

EWL: We know it's not going to last forever. We're very proud of it and we're going to enjoy it and shout it to the stars. I think sometimes in your life when you have great experiences, you're so caught up in what's ahead that you don't concentrate on what you're actually existing in. We're trying to just enjoy it.

NR: I interviewed Nick Corley over the summer and I found out that you did Marie back in the readings.

EWL: That's right. It was `96.

NR: What was that like and how has the character evolved since then?

EWL: The story is that I worked with Nick. I know him as an actor and as a friend. We had done a variety of very funny jobs together - musical revues or whatever. He was asked by the Nederlanders to get a group of people together to come read this script. Truly, that's what it was. We all met in the basement of the John Houseman Theatre in early 1996. Carolee was there and I was there. We just all got together and read this piece. And then a couple months later they asked most of us back to do it again, and then again and again. Then I had to go in and audition for Marie. I had to go in and sing for Peter Hunt. The show was already booked for Broadway and we were doing a huge group sales thing. There were a few of us that Peter wanted to pre-approve because we were going to have larger roles in the group sales presentation. I went in and sang for them and did a few of the scenes. About two weeks later my agent was told that I was on hold, which basically means they're really, really interested but they can't offer you the job. I knew they were going to LA to meet other people. And I got it. It was just so fabulous to see it through from where it started which was just pages stapled together. Interestingly enough, Marie has very much stayed the same.

NR: That's what I thought. Now, Marguerite's changed...

EWL: Marguerite's changed quite a bit. Not in her intent but in the shape of the scenes, in the juxtaposition of the scenes, the way they are placed in the show. But she's still kind of the same sort of woman. Marie is very, very similar, which has been a good thing but also a drawback. I've done three versions and very little of my material has changed. But, I think you track my character much better now, from SP1 to SP2. It stayed the same from SP2 to SP3.

NR: Nan (Knighton) told me your character actually did exist.

EWL: She did exist. I did a lot of research on her. Her name was Marie Grosholtz Tussaud. She was an apprentice to the guy who did all the wax work, which was a big status symbol in those times. They didn't have photographs so to have your wax done was a big thing. She was forced by Robespierre...

KL: ...who was another real guy.

EWL: Yeah. She was in the prison. She had been in the court of Marie Antoinette. She was the art tutor to Marie Antoinette's youngest sister. (All of her sisters were at the court.) She was there teaching art. She was put in prison. Then she was let out of prison while the royal family was kept there, and she was forced to go get the head of Marie Antoinette and make a death mask of it. At that point they would make death masks, parade them around on sticks and charge admission. That was kind of how the whole wax work thing evolved. She married a guy named Francois Tussaud, had two kids very quickly and left him. Nobody knows why. Her sons never knew why. She went to England, did a traveling wax show and started Madame Tussaud's. That's true. She was born in 1761, so she was definitely there.

KL: She would have been in her 30's.

EWL: Yeah, she would have been in her 30's. She would have been my age. It's just been a wild ride. That's part of the reason we had to come back and do version 3. It's so unprecedented. I just felt it's like my destiny. I don't know why.

NR: Ken, how have the Bounders changed since the beginning?

KL: Well, the Bounders...everybody's become a lot more specific. There's less of them. Without Percy and Armand, there were nine and now there are just six. We really thought that it was going to be kind of sparse up there and it probably would be if we were back in the Minskoff. But here, this little tiny stage and jewel box of a theater - this is where I always thought that this show should be.

NR: Really?

KL: Yes, I really did. First of all, I did Victor/Victoria in the Marquis, which is the same as the Minskoff with its swooping auditorium. I feel like I'm in a high school auditorium. With all due respect to those theaters, they just don't have a lot of personality, and this theater does. All the little boxes just seem right, and the stage just seems right. Everybody's more highlighted. The three guys they took out had lines so that everybody got a couple more lines. Everyone's a little more focused and brought forward.

EWL: It's different for you anyway because you're playing a different role.

NR: I was going to ask you about that. What is that like?

KL: It's great.

NR: It must be a challenge.

KL: Yeah, it is. I had understudied this part before and had gone on a lot. I always liked the part. It was that stalwart best friend. I like it because I usually end up playing Capulet or characters like Orin Scrivello in Little Shop of Horrors. I always end up playing little weirdo guys, and this guy is kind of true blue and a good guy. I usually don't play characters like this so it's fun for me. That's really changed for me and I think for all the guys. Bobby (Longbottom) spent more time with us this time around, had more specific things to say about the scenes, and I think that "Creation of Man" is the best that it's ever been.

NR: Well, it was a lot more relaxed this time than the changeover from SP1 to SP2, especially for those of you who were doing both versions at the same time.

EWL: That was a tough experience. It was really hard and complicated. It was complicated emotionally and it was just hard work.

NR: It was quick. You had to do both at the same time.

EWL: Yeah, and it was just weird. A lot of people's jobs changed. All the material was cut. It was very hard. Terry and Christine (Andreas) were very beloved and very important to all of us. Ed Dixon was. A lot of people were. It was just a lot of changes.

NR: I assume the dynamics have changed again. You have all new leads and it's a smaller group.

EWL: The only thing that feels so different about this is that we had a long rehearsal process and we were actually all in the room trying to make it new. From 1 to 2, it was a bit disjointed. We didn't all get together till about two weeks before we really resumed. The leads had been rehearsing after they were hired, a lot of us were pulled from the show to go to rehearsal. This felt like it was starting a new show, as opposed to the second version that felt like it was trying to fit in things.

NR: I understand the public's having trouble even noticing or caring that you're back.

EWL: I know.

NR: What is the feeling about that?

KL: I think everyone's a little dismayed. Everyone's wondering, "What's going on?"

NR: Were you just gone too long? There was a lot of momentum last spring. Then all of a sudden it closed, with good reason. I understand why they're not at the Minskoff anymore, but three months is probably a long time to be closed in New York.

EWL: Look, it's the big question for everybody. I don't know if the theater is dying or it's just this specific show. I don't know. I think it's a little bit that we opened at a tough time. September's a tough time because people just went back to school. The momentum may build because this show has always been a show about momentum. What's interesting about this show is that it's been constantly...it's always been a run filled with questions about how long we're going to go. And you know what? We've surrendered to it. It's so much bigger than we are - the marketing of it. It's just not our job. We'll just continue to come.

NR: I remember when you told me that you took this over Romeo and Juliet because it was the more stable job. Did you ever think that Pimpernel would be more stable than anything else?

KL: No. Definitely not.

EWL: You know, when we left to do Romeo and Juliet, we left with a very open heart. It was a very amicable leaving. We both felt we had done what we could do at the Minskoff. We were just ready for a new challenge and we really believe in Romeo and Juliet.

NR: How did it work with Terrence Mann, since you had first worked together and then he directed you?

EWL: It was wonderful.

KL: It was great. That wasn't an adjustment for us at all. We're all very good friends and Terry treats us with the utmost respect. He's always interested in what we have to say or feel about a scene, even things we're not in.

EWL: And we felt really like part of the collaboration. That's the pull of new pieces. As an artist, you really do matter. When we got asked back to do this - on the same day. Do you know that?

NR: No, I didn't know that.

EWL: Romeo and Juliet and Scarlet Pimpernel on the same day.

KL: I want to tell you something seriously. It was about fifty minutes apart. We got offered this and less than an hour later Terry called and said, "I want to offer you the job."

NR: Wow. And a lot of actors and actresses are never offered anything like that. That's amazing.

KL: Well, we were flattered.

EWL: That was a decision that was really filled with a lot of angst. We had already taken a big gamble to leave. Broadway salaries are about as good as you can make in the theater...

KL: ...and it cost us money to leave the show and to go to Goodspeed.

EWL: Goodspeed pays very, very low. It's a very prestigious job but we lost money by doing that. It was a big time lag. They didn't start until July. We finished the first run at Goodspeed on February 15th. It was just a big chunk of time for us. Just the sequence of events...it was going to be another regional production. They didn't have any dates past that. We're people of a certain age and we need to make a living. So, we just decided to pass this time and hope that it will come back. We believed in the work that we had done there, and the foundation that we had laid. If we could have, we would have gone. The timing just wasn't right.

NR: Do you think they're going to come into New York?

EWL: I think they are.

KL: I think they will.

EWL: The producers are very dedicated to it.

KL: I don't think it will be for some time. It probably won't even be next year.

EWL: They definitely have to do another incarnation. They're just going to take a bit of a creative break from it. It all happened very fast. Sometimes these projects take years and years to get together.

KL: You know, ten months ago we did a reading of it here in town and they had just finished the second act. Then they had the Goodspeed version, and it got done at the Ordway in St. Paul.

EWL: So, that's fast. I think that they're going to take a little creative break and hopefully get something mounted for mid-2000. We're going to keep our fingers crossed that we'll be asked to go. We don't know. Actors don't look that far ahead. A couple months is about all we can stomach.

NR: I was wondering what would have happened if one of you wanted to do one show and the other wanted to do the other one.

EWL: There was a time that we thought... because Terry knew about our financial situation and he said, "What about if one of you comes with me?"

KL: But who do you pick?

NR: Then one of you would have been on the road.

KL: We're very clear with people. In this show and with Terry, we've always said, "We are not a package deal. We would love to work together." For a lot of people, that is a bonus. If you like the two people it's easier to keep the family together, and the people are more committed to the show and stay longer. However, one of us can go.

NR: I'm sure it would hurt you terribly if you said to any future director, "Look, you have to take both of us."

EWL: (laughing) We would never do that. We would never get away with that. Luckily enough, we don't know why, but we have some sort of strength as a couple that people are drawn to. It may be that we do work together more often than not, but we've never said that we have to.

KL: No. We would never say that.

EWL: What was good about us for the Capulets was that we are a married couple and so are they. Now, they are a very dysfunctional married couple, but it's an energy that is hard to create. It's just an unspoken thing between us and I think that worked in our favor.

NR: Do you have any dream role - like two leads that you would love to play together?

KL: No.

EWL: Interestingly enough, we were supposed to do Marian the Librarian and Harold Hill in The Music Man at Terry's theater.

KL: Terry asked us about a year ago.

EWL: Longer. We were booked to go do it.

KL: He said, "I direct down there. We can do something together. What would you guys like to do?" and I said, "I've always wanted to do Harold Hill in The Music Man."

EWL: He said, "OK." We were supposed to go in November, and now, obviously, we can't go. That's disappointing. That would definitely be something we'd like to do together.

NR: Well, you never know.

KL: Nope. You never know.

NR: What do you wish you had more time for?

KL: I wish we could get out of town more. We love Vermont. We've spent a lot of time up there. We've spent some time out on Cape Cod too.

EWL: It's a tough schedule. You have one day, and inevitably there's something. Next Monday we're doing this thing at Radio City Music Hall and we're going to be rehearsing till kingdom come.

KL: If we could just have a little bit more time...it's a tough turnaround. When I asked Lizzie to marry me, we went up to Vermont, this place that we really love, but it's seven hours away. So, we left on a Sunday night, got up there at midnight, or one o'clock in the morning. We had all day Monday, which is great, but Tuesday morning we had to pack up the car and get back here to do the show. It's really fast, so I wish we had just a little more time to get out in the country. Especially since we both really love autumn. October is our favorite month and we just wish that we could spend more time. We go close places.

EWL: Well, as Ken says, "Show business will give you its vacations."

KL: That's right. Sooner or later.

NR: Yeah, but that's when you can't afford them.

KL: That's right. If you're out of work you think, "I can't spend any money." You don't have the time when you are working, and when you're out you're so protective of your dough.

EWL: It's such a bizarre life. But we thank our lucky stars all the time that we "get it." As a couple, we understand about the other person's goals and dreams. I had definitely dated some guys that were not in show business and it never had worked for me.

NR: It's hard with the hours.

EWL: It's hard with the hours and they just couldn't quite understand why I would do a job for $400 in some remote area just because I liked the part.

NR: That's a good point. One last question - The League - have you ever seen anything like it?

KL: No. Never. Everybody keeps saying, "Wow." And we know when (sing-song) "they're here." We can hear them.

EWL: You know, truthfully, the only tough time when they're in the audience is that they know the show so well that it's tough for the other audience members. But, as a fan base, you guys could not be nicer. You couldn't be nicer. You've been so supportive. That outweighs the other, but I've never seen anything like it.

NR: When it's a few people, they don't do that. I think it happens more often on one of the big party days when a lot of people show up.

EWL: Well, the energy is incredible, but for the regular audience person, it makes it a bad experience for them.

KL: But they have been great to us. They've been so nice to Lizzie and me. Some of them came up to Goodspeed too.

NR: I know. More people would have gone but we couldn't get tickets.

KL: I know. Well it's a little tiny house and it sold out.

NR: Well, maybe you'll get to do Romeo and Juliet again in a larger house. I'm sure many people will go to see it then. Thanks so much for your time.

KL: You're welcome.

EWL: Thank you.

Liz and Ken have a dynamic together that's probably greater than the sum of the parts. Several of their answers were simultaneous and it was such a treat to see a couple who are working towards the same goals. They're very supportive of each other and manage to prove that it is possible to work with your spouse and not kill each other!

Questions suggested by:

Jan Combopiano, Karen, Faith K, Samantha, Renee Girard, Wendy Gibb, Jennifer Ahlborn, Stacy McInnis